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	<title>Comments on: Are .NET Developers the American Tourists of the Software Industry?</title>
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	<description>A Grande, Triple Shot, Non-Fat Core Dump by Russell Ball</description>
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		<title>By: Fred</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-6679</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2011 22:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-6679</guid>
		<description>&quot;Because in the real world I just can’t debug and fix everthing. I have to stand on other shoulder and know they are a sound foundation&quot;

There is a lot of truth to this. However, at least with open source, you CAN fix it if needed. With .NET libraries you have to wait for MS to accept there is a bug, then put it in their bug queue and then sometime down the road you might get a fix. Of course by then, it might cause new bugs or introduce incompatibilities.

Sure, you can built lots of web-services or desktop apps with .NET, but in the case of web apps you are tied to MS forever, and that is not a good thing. I recently did some consulting work for a small software shop trying to get out from under MS after getting burned badly in a business deal with them. I got them 90% of the way there and they are more productive for it. The sad part is that if they stayed under MS rule, it would have cost them about $40,000 for forced(yes, forced) upgrades because they needed to upgrade 10 year old hardware. That is $40,000 they didn&#039;t have. 

Tying yourself to MS is a huge business risk that have cost thousands of businesses billions of dollars collectively, yet they keep paying for the abuse and then complain and acted shocked that MS bent them over again and didn&#039;t use lube or have the common courtesy to give them a reach-around. It is amazingly stupid on their part and I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who put themselves in this position.

Another problem with living under Microsoft&#039;s thumb is that if they don&#039;t allow something, you can&#039;t do it, even if you really, really need to. They hold all the keys and power.

Open Source gives you a solid foundation and some sturdy walls with holes for doors and windows,and easy access to the neighborhood and the world past that. The house isn&#039;t flashy, but it is quite comfortable, usually.  

It comes with a big screen TV and cable as well as phone service to call anyone you need to. It doesn&#039;t come standard with a ceiling, but has all the tools and materials in the backyard to put one up easily, and it also has enough tools and materials in the backyard for more levels to be built.

Microsoft gives you a strong foundation and solid walls. The house is not quite as big as what OSS gives you but still roomy and is fully furnished but lacks cable, phone service but does have a TV and DVD and is stocked with MS approved discs. The walls have no doors(at least not accessible to you) or windows, nor precut holes or decent tools for them. There actually is one door, but is locked and MS won&#039;t give you the key.

MS uses the door to come in and do repairs and add on to the house. 

You do have a 2-way radio with one frequency that is controlled by MS. It has an extremely solid roof that you can&#039;t remove. It also has a small closet with a small saw, a stack of paper and some glue if you want to cut through the walls and try to make a tunnel to your neighbor. Your neighbor lives 200 miles away because the house MS gave you is in the middle of the desert with lots of dangerous animals roaming about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Because in the real world I just can’t debug and fix everthing. I have to stand on other shoulder and know they are a sound foundation&#8221;</p>
<p>There is a lot of truth to this. However, at least with open source, you CAN fix it if needed. With .NET libraries you have to wait for MS to accept there is a bug, then put it in their bug queue and then sometime down the road you might get a fix. Of course by then, it might cause new bugs or introduce incompatibilities.</p>
<p>Sure, you can built lots of web-services or desktop apps with .NET, but in the case of web apps you are tied to MS forever, and that is not a good thing. I recently did some consulting work for a small software shop trying to get out from under MS after getting burned badly in a business deal with them. I got them 90% of the way there and they are more productive for it. The sad part is that if they stayed under MS rule, it would have cost them about $40,000 for forced(yes, forced) upgrades because they needed to upgrade 10 year old hardware. That is $40,000 they didn&#8217;t have. </p>
<p>Tying yourself to MS is a huge business risk that have cost thousands of businesses billions of dollars collectively, yet they keep paying for the abuse and then complain and acted shocked that MS bent them over again and didn&#8217;t use lube or have the common courtesy to give them a reach-around. It is amazingly stupid on their part and I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who put themselves in this position.</p>
<p>Another problem with living under Microsoft&#8217;s thumb is that if they don&#8217;t allow something, you can&#8217;t do it, even if you really, really need to. They hold all the keys and power.</p>
<p>Open Source gives you a solid foundation and some sturdy walls with holes for doors and windows,and easy access to the neighborhood and the world past that. The house isn&#8217;t flashy, but it is quite comfortable, usually.  </p>
<p>It comes with a big screen TV and cable as well as phone service to call anyone you need to. It doesn&#8217;t come standard with a ceiling, but has all the tools and materials in the backyard to put one up easily, and it also has enough tools and materials in the backyard for more levels to be built.</p>
<p>Microsoft gives you a strong foundation and solid walls. The house is not quite as big as what OSS gives you but still roomy and is fully furnished but lacks cable, phone service but does have a TV and DVD and is stocked with MS approved discs. The walls have no doors(at least not accessible to you) or windows, nor precut holes or decent tools for them. There actually is one door, but is locked and MS won&#8217;t give you the key.</p>
<p>MS uses the door to come in and do repairs and add on to the house. </p>
<p>You do have a 2-way radio with one frequency that is controlled by MS. It has an extremely solid roof that you can&#8217;t remove. It also has a small closet with a small saw, a stack of paper and some glue if you want to cut through the walls and try to make a tunnel to your neighbor. Your neighbor lives 200 miles away because the house MS gave you is in the middle of the desert with lots of dangerous animals roaming about.</p>
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		<title>By: honestjoe</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-6632</link>
		<dc:creator>honestjoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-6632</guid>
		<description>I live in both world I develop trading software in. Net/sqlserver and a public facing site with php/mysql. All I can say is when it comes down to the line. Reliability and predictability are key. And despite the advantages comunity developed software is lacking. Because in the real world I just can&#039;t debug and fix everthing.  I have to stand on other shoulder and know they are a sound foundation.  ...but I will continue testing and debugging and contributing because eventually the rest of the community will also get the point that leading edge functionality is second to stability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in both world I develop trading software in. Net/sqlserver and a public facing site with php/mysql. All I can say is when it comes down to the line. Reliability and predictability are key. And despite the advantages comunity developed software is lacking. Because in the real world I just can&#8217;t debug and fix everthing.  I have to stand on other shoulder and know they are a sound foundation.  &#8230;but I will continue testing and debugging and contributing because eventually the rest of the community will also get the point that leading edge functionality is second to stability.</p>
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		<title>By: Boz</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-6593</link>
		<dc:creator>Boz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-6593</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think that all M$ haters just hate the fact that it is too easy to produce a products with M$ in literally half the time it will take all hardcore non M$ programmer to give you the same product.&quot;


LOL

.NET crap is some of the most overly-engineered pile of garbage that has ever been seen outside JavaLand.

DX is also over-engineered garbage.

A good programming language does not need an IDE. IDE&#039;s exist to overcome shortcomings in programming languages. VS is so good simply because the languages and API&#039;s it supports are so bad.

If a competent programmer can not be just as productive without an IDE, while working on a non-trivial program, then the language is poorly designed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think that all M$ haters just hate the fact that it is too easy to produce a products with M$ in literally half the time it will take all hardcore non M$ programmer to give you the same product.&#8221;</p>
<p>LOL</p>
<p>.NET crap is some of the most overly-engineered pile of garbage that has ever been seen outside JavaLand.</p>
<p>DX is also over-engineered garbage.</p>
<p>A good programming language does not need an IDE. IDE&#8217;s exist to overcome shortcomings in programming languages. VS is so good simply because the languages and API&#8217;s it supports are so bad.</p>
<p>If a competent programmer can not be just as productive without an IDE, while working on a non-trivial program, then the language is poorly designed.</p>
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		<title>By: AsH83</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-6586</link>
		<dc:creator>AsH83</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 18:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-6586</guid>
		<description>As an embedded linux programmer and .NET programmer, I think that all M$ haters just hate the fact that it is too easy to produce a products with M$ in literally half the time it will take all hardcore non M$ programmer to give you the same product.

- if it is easy to use M$ products DO not blame it.. it might be easy to attract some newbies that do not no coding, but this is not a flaw of the language/technology.

- People who said API are BS and can not do anything that perform great, I will give you two examples:
   a. DirectX which is a M$ API technology that can be used in VS and can be integrated with .NET produces more games for the xbox than Sony PS3 technologies.. M$ kicked sony&#039;s ass in almost every aspect of game development.. if you took one game in both consoles you will not tell the difference between the two consoles and you know that the PS3 is twice beefy than the xbox360. this shows how great DX is... and just to say for the open source monkeys and other M$ haters OpenGL in linux is not even in the game.. all major video cards tweaks their product to interface with DX as priority then OpenGL.
  
   b. For web development. .NET will produce a high end products that can give you everything from DB connection to any server side work you need in half the time it will take using non M$ technology.

- M$ IDE is light years ahead of any other IDE out there. Debugging/Packaging/Deploying/Refactoring/Source Control integration with Team server/ navigating in huge projects are much better in VS than any other IDE... 


- If you still love make files and jumping thru loops to build your code, it does not mean it is the only way.. if you say i know more about the environment than you who use one click to build, I will tell yeah thats true but the person who code Assembly knows more than you. The argument is not who knows more the argument is that who can produce code that works..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an embedded linux programmer and .NET programmer, I think that all M$ haters just hate the fact that it is too easy to produce a products with M$ in literally half the time it will take all hardcore non M$ programmer to give you the same product.</p>
<p>- if it is easy to use M$ products DO not blame it.. it might be easy to attract some newbies that do not no coding, but this is not a flaw of the language/technology.</p>
<p>- People who said API are BS and can not do anything that perform great, I will give you two examples:<br />
   a. DirectX which is a M$ API technology that can be used in VS and can be integrated with .NET produces more games for the xbox than Sony PS3 technologies.. M$ kicked sony&#8217;s ass in almost every aspect of game development.. if you took one game in both consoles you will not tell the difference between the two consoles and you know that the PS3 is twice beefy than the xbox360. this shows how great DX is&#8230; and just to say for the open source monkeys and other M$ haters OpenGL in linux is not even in the game.. all major video cards tweaks their product to interface with DX as priority then OpenGL.</p>
<p>   b. For web development. .NET will produce a high end products that can give you everything from DB connection to any server side work you need in half the time it will take using non M$ technology.</p>
<p>- M$ IDE is light years ahead of any other IDE out there. Debugging/Packaging/Deploying/Refactoring/Source Control integration with Team server/ navigating in huge projects are much better in VS than any other IDE&#8230; </p>
<p>- If you still love make files and jumping thru loops to build your code, it does not mean it is the only way.. if you say i know more about the environment than you who use one click to build, I will tell yeah thats true but the person who code Assembly knows more than you. The argument is not who knows more the argument is that who can produce code that works..</p>
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		<title>By: qwerty</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-6528</link>
		<dc:creator>qwerty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jun 2011 20:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-6528</guid>
		<description>A big difference between .NET and open source ecosystems(minus PHP, which is garbage) is the difference in skill level between the developers and users of said ecosystem. AKA programmers vs API monkeys.

Developing .NET is not trivial and I don&#039;t think it is unfair to say that maybe 1% of .NET users could work on the project.

In the open source world, users of  are often just as skilled as the developers of .

I might hire someone who is familiar with the .NET platform(or Java for that matter), but if that is all he knows, there is no way I would hire him because he is not really a programmer. He is simply an end-user. This would also apply if the project I was hiring ran on the .NET platform.

mono is not equivalent to .NET so can not be touted as making .NET cross-platform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A big difference between .NET and open source ecosystems(minus PHP, which is garbage) is the difference in skill level between the developers and users of said ecosystem. AKA programmers vs API monkeys.</p>
<p>Developing .NET is not trivial and I don&#8217;t think it is unfair to say that maybe 1% of .NET users could work on the project.</p>
<p>In the open source world, users of  are often just as skilled as the developers of .</p>
<p>I might hire someone who is familiar with the .NET platform(or Java for that matter), but if that is all he knows, there is no way I would hire him because he is not really a programmer. He is simply an end-user. This would also apply if the project I was hiring ran on the .NET platform.</p>
<p>mono is not equivalent to .NET so can not be touted as making .NET cross-platform.</p>
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		<title>By: Muslim Marriage Events</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-6522</link>
		<dc:creator>Muslim Marriage Events</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jun 2011 20:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-6522</guid>
		<description>Microsoft do provide some of the most user friendly interfaces around.  Excellent Html tool which is easy to use if Frontpage.  Easy and simple works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Microsoft do provide some of the most user friendly interfaces around.  Excellent Html tool which is easy to use if Frontpage.  Easy and simple works.</p>
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		<title>By: A Year in the Life of CaffeinatedCoder: Part 1 &#124; Caffeinated Coder</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-1948</link>
		<dc:creator>A Year in the Life of CaffeinatedCoder: Part 1 &#124; Caffeinated Coder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-1948</guid>
		<description>[...] trends, I start wondering why .NET developers get no love in the industry and end up writing a post comparing .NET developers to American Tourists. Although the post languished in obscurity for several weeks, it ended up getting over 30,000 hits [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] trends, I start wondering why .NET developers get no love in the industry and end up writing a post comparing .NET developers to American Tourists. Although the post languished in obscurity for several weeks, it ended up getting over 30,000 hits [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mj</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-1873</link>
		<dc:creator>mj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-1873</guid>
		<description>I was kinda surprised when I met a .NET/ASP developer today who, when he realised I had an iPhone, stated that I must hate ASP/.NET/C#.

No, they&#039;re just tools. 

What I hate is people telling me that I have to use certain tools without good reason. Like building stuff only to work with IE. Or even FireFox 2. And that includes stuff deliberately designed to work with Safari as well.

Microsoft just works extra hard at being loathed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was kinda surprised when I met a .NET/ASP developer today who, when he realised I had an iPhone, stated that I must hate ASP/.NET/C#.</p>
<p>No, they&#8217;re just tools. </p>
<p>What I hate is people telling me that I have to use certain tools without good reason. Like building stuff only to work with IE. Or even FireFox 2. And that includes stuff deliberately designed to work with Safari as well.</p>
<p>Microsoft just works extra hard at being loathed.</p>
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		<title>By: A Caffeine Inspired Interview with Jeff Atwood from CodingHorror.com &#124; Caffeinated Coder</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-865</link>
		<dc:creator>A Caffeine Inspired Interview with Jeff Atwood from CodingHorror.com &#124; Caffeinated Coder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-865</guid>
		<description>[...] it is still thrilling for me to see one of my posts be widely read, my recent experience with a relatively popular post left me feeling as though I wouldn&#8217;t scale well in this respect if the number of comments I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it is still thrilling for me to see one of my posts be widely read, my recent experience with a relatively popular post left me feeling as though I wouldn&#8217;t scale well in this respect if the number of comments I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Confluence: Bruno Andrighetto</title>
		<link>http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/comment-page-4/#comment-843</link>
		<dc:creator>Confluence: Bruno Andrighetto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.caffeinatedcoder.com/are-net-developers-the-american-tourists-of-the-software-industry/#comment-843</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Diversions...&lt;/strong&gt;

Software Dev   How Projects Really Work (version 2.0)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Diversions&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Software Dev   How Projects Really Work (version 2.0)&#8230;</p>
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